I'm confused as the Bible seems to contradict itself, such as in Leviticus 20:13, Leviticus 24:17, Matthew 7:1, and Luke 10:27. This is a really bad situation here in Indiana. [Moderator note: This question is about the Christian response to homosexual issues in media, and not directly about whether homosexuality is a sin; except in how that affects the christian response to media issues. If you wish to comment/answer only on whether or not homosexual behavior is a sin, see the relevant eBible thread: https://ebible.com/questions/1019-what-does-the-bible-say-about-homosexuality-is-homosexuality-a-sin. Thank you.]
ESV - 13 If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them.
For follow-up discussion and general commentary on the topic. Comments are sorted chronologically.
Jesus Christ said He didn't come to invalidate the God's laws and His prophets, but to fulfill them.
Jesus Christ didn't stop the people from stoning the prostitute, He only said the one without sin to throw the first stone. And when all the people walked away without throwing a stone, Jesus Christ ask the prostitute to go and SIN NO MORE.
Being a gay intentionally negates what God Almighty intends for us.
Prostitution, on the other hand, puts to bad use the (woman) body God has made specially.
God was so displeased with the man and man, woman and woman liaisons that He destroyed whole nations!
Christians should, like our redeemer, let the people concerned know God's truth. But where they refuse to repent, they should then face the immutable laws of Jehovah God, for they reject Jesus Christ.
My advice is to read 1 corinthians 6:9 and 1 timothy 1:10.
And if you are unsure? Then pray to Jesus and he will answer you. :)
Walking in the Light
1 John 1:5
This is the message we heard from Jesus and now declare to you: God is light, and there is no darkness in him at all. So we are lying if we say we have fellowship with God but go on living in spiritual darkness; we are not practicing the truth. But if we are living in the light, as God is in the light, then we have fellowship with each other, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, cleanses us from all sin. If we claim we have no sin, we are only fooling ourselves and not living in the truth. But if we confess our sins to him, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all wickedness. If we claim we have not sinned, we are calling God a liar and showing that his word has no place I our hearts.
That is plain and simple. How sad God is to see us all bickering over this subject. Everything we want to know about IS in the Bible. God Bless us all, and may the Holy Spirit fill us with the knowledge of the truth!
I share your concern about the media’s on-going opinions about homosexuality & believe we Christians must continually address these issues directly w/ the media as well as w/ our children & others if we want to steer people away from the popular liberal mindset. I think we should be addressing 3 major points:
( 1) Addressing the verses you mention—Leviticus, as part of the OT, is a historical account of the behaviors of people in those days. I don’t believe the documented punishments are something we are told to follow today. In contrast, in the NT, Jesus teaches us to hate the sin, yet love the sinner & although Matt 7:1 tells us not to judge, we are called to make a right judgment (John 7:24). The NT clearly teaches that homosexuality, is wrong (1 Cor 6:9; 1 Tim 1:9-10).
That said, (2) I believe that two men or two women can love each other. That is not homosexuality; that (love) is not the sin; the sin is the sexual acts.
(3): If the media asked me to address the issues of equal rights for homosexuals (e.g., being able to marry 1 another, have health insurance under 1’s partner, or have rights to visit their loved 1 in a hospital like a family member), I would say homosexuals should have all the rights except marital rights. Marriage is only between 1 man & 1 woman; however, the fact that 1 person loves another person of the same sex & wants to provide health insurance for them or wants them to be able to visit in the hospital, is certainly acceptable.
That was the penalty under the old covenant. God hates sin (not in his nature) but loves the sinner. Romans 3 says we all fall short of his glory. We all struggle with sin and they are all equal to God. It only took one sin to separate us from Him. If they don't repent (have a change in heart and mind) that is between him and God. We are still called to love one another in the greatest commands (Matthew 22)
I agree with the two highest rated answers.
What I wanted to say though was, be careful. People running the Media know humans can be CONDITIONED, to accept any behavior.
This is clearly seen in the acceptance of the behavior we are discussing. Since the 1970's and before, when Media began a campaign to reverse Sodomy laws.
That is when the Christians community should have spoken out. Christians silence was seen as, APPROVAL, of reversing those laws and promoting homosexual behavior as a Civil Right.
As a result we have Pastors searching scriptures for ways to accept this behavior.
Now those groups, non believers, have gained much power and are targeting Christians. Those groups make War on God.
I believe God does expect us to stand up and defend Him and the scriptures! Christians cannot initiate violence, but there are many ways to make change.
Support candidates who have high moral values. Look at voting records for the truth.
God does not change, He is the same today as He was when He spoke to Moses.
yes it is a very great but Jesus forgives sins but it is a sin to be a homosexual.
Shame on all Christians who use the word "sinner" to apply to someone other than themselves. I am a sinner who has found a savior. Nothing more. Please be more careful. You can't "Love the sinner, hate the sin," if in the process you label someone as a sinner, and you mean they are different from you. You are then only a Pharisee for Jesus. The only person I am concerned about being in danger of hell is...me.
Reading this saddens me. How many of 'us' out there are parents of gay children? We have three sons, all born within 5 years. My husband and I did not parent our youngest, who is gay, any differently that the older two. In some Christian circles and broadcasts, my child is compared to the least of these, like he is pure sin. While I know that God didn't create him gay, I know that He loves him. Things go wrong in pregnancy. I fought what I thought I saw in him by attacking the very people I now want to show love! When he finally told us in college, he was still our son. Hearing letters he wrote to pastors & others how he could fix himself, were heartbreaking. He finally realized God still loved him. That was a while ago; he is a professional with a wonderful heart! Finding a church that won't condemn him is hard. I've lost friends because of not trying to 'fix' him . God has been gracious in giving us not only peace, but also not condemnation for those who condemn him & us. Blaspheming the name of Jesus keeps you out of heaven. So, the Christian millionaire giving less than 10%? Liars, adulterers -divorced people who remarry? Glutons? We're all guilty of something. While it's not ok for anyone to be promiscuous, they are human! To be tossed aside as something easy to 'fix'. It's not. We're not to condemn but love. They are human. If they find love, don't condemn! Not our job! God knows the heart. Accepting is not condoning, it's love. God can fix. We are to love.
Homosexuality is not easy to 'fix'. It functions, genetically, much like alcoholism. Once one is addicted, it is very hard (though possible) to work towards sobriety. Christians should indeed be empathetic towards those struggling with addictions, but this empathy includes trying to help, not turning a blind eye.
Coming alongside a brother in Christ to restore them when caught in a sin is what Christians are supposed to do (I Cor 5:1-2). This should be done gently, with the motive of restoration and reconciliation if possible. Gal 6:1. He should look for a church group that will lovingly hold him accountable and walk with him.
We all struggle with various temptations (gossip, criticism, anger, coveting, sexual immorality, etc). Christ forgave our sins, we no longer are what we once were, and we flee from sexual immorality (I Cor 6:12-20).
It is not 'condemning' however to recognize that homosexuality is a sin, along with slavery, perjury, homicide, etc. (I Tim 1:9-11). Nor does sin become OK if a 'matter of love.'
"The sum of Thy word is truth" (Psalm 119:151). So, we speak the truth according to Scripture. "So shall My word be which goes forth from My mouth; it shall not return to Me empty, without accomplishing what I desire, and without succeeding in the matter for which I sent it," (Isaiah 55:11). Jesus has never been lost for He finds us and it is not us finding Him. In Love just speak the truth.
So we have compared homosexuality to perjury, homicide, etc. So much for love the sinner, hate the sin.
Charles, did you read the referenced verse? I Tim 1:9-11?
"We know that the law is good if one uses it properly.We also know that the law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, for the sexually immoral, for those practicing homosexuality, for slave traders and liars and perjurers—and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine that conforms to the gospel concerning the glory of the blessed God, which he entrusted to me". - I Tim 1:8-11
It is Paul which compares homosexuality with perjury, kidnapping and slavery, matricide, fornication, etc.
Please do not refer to homosexuality to an addiction. That would mean a predisposition like for alcohol. It is not. We have done research, we have searched high and low and a comment like that is simply not true. There are gray areas here - it is not the cut and dried - you chose it, you live it, you are condemned. Come find me when you get better. Also, our son is welcome in churches. He even sings in church.; The kind of church he was raised in tho, still keeps the language of same verses, ignoring the judgement which Jesus spoke of always! Don't do it. By assuming you can lump these folks into a box that they can jump out of if desired, is cruel. It is not alcoholism. We do not stand in the pulpit and condemn those who have divorced and remarried, who are liars and bigots.
We have chosen to love, to not slam our son with the 'well, you know how we feel, and you better chance. we still love you, but"...Instead, we choose to show him love, to ask him how his life is, and to fill him so completely with a feeling of YOU ARE SAFE WITH US, that he does not feel suicidal, that he doesn't need to seek companionship and love elsewhere, and if God heals him - if he seeks healing - that is between he and God, not us. For the vast majority it's not a choice! to live a life where you are an outcast, even with societal changes?!.No, we will continue to make gay humans welcome, as well as any other human.
Twin studies have indeed found a slight genetic behavioral predisposition towards homosexuality, in the same manner as genetic-behavioral predispositions towards alcoholism work. Genetics have not found any such thing as a gay gene, or any genetic mandate towards alcoholism.
One can be born with a predisposition to become alcoholic or homosexual - this does not mean it is a choice-less mandate, just that one is more susceptible.
Just as environment can affect ones odds of becoming alcoholic, such as living around an alcoholic family, so environment plays a large part in homosexuality.
Personal choice is, of course, a factor as well.
And assuming one does end up becoming an alcoholic or active homosexual, this is not a forever-sentence. While addictions are difficult to combat due to the change in brain chemistry that drives the needs, one can still enter therapy.
If someone is living in unrepentant sin, even proud of it, it is not loving to let them continue, nor healthy for the church to embrace that. (Gal 6:1, Jude 1:23)
"It is actually reported that there is immorality among you.. You have become arrogant and have not mourned instead, so that the one who had done this deed would be removed from your midst. For I, on my part, though absent in body but present in spirit....have already passed judgment in the name of our Lord Jesus on the one who has been doing this". I Cor 5:1-5
It is not love to tell someone they can embrace sin as well as God.
Let's imagine for a moment, however, that it was unavoidable.
Is that not the same condition that all of mankind is in? We all have a sin nature. While technically we might be able to 'avoid sinning' - the truth is no one has ever been sinless, no one can be sinless, and no one could be sinless except for Christ.
Fortunately, Christ paid the penalty for all our sins. It does not matter if we were alcoholics, swindlers, homosexuals, fornicators, slanderers, murderers, etc: any of us can approach God through the death of Christ.
But if we were sanctified and justified in the name of Christ, we no longer identify by our sin nor seek after it. (I Cor 6:7-16).
Some sins we may struggle with our whole lives, but we will find that in walking by the Spirit, we put to death the deeds of the flesh (Gal 5:16-17).
"For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live". Rom 8:12-13
"For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. Therefore what benefit were you then deriving from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the outcome of those things is death. But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life.…" Rom 6:20-22
If we walk by the Spirit, we will not seek to please or indulge the flesh (Gal 5).
Yes, we are to love the sinner and hate the sin. The fact is that the truth may hurt, but we cannot get around the Truth. Rationalization, excuses and denial are at the heart of our society. Tolerance is being redefined to mean that we must embrace, but tolerance only means that I should be respectful not accepting or in agreement. The moral character of a man's actions is determined by the moral state of his heart. The disposition to sin, or the habit of the soul that leads to the sinful act, is itself also sin. At some point there must be a change of mind and a turn in a new direction. There is a Law Giver and if not who is to say that anything is wrong. We all sin but if there is never a change....?
To say that our family environment contributed to our sons homosexuality is not only hurtful but also untrue. Twin studies do not release all findings on this matter, and as of this post I will cease this discussion. It seems you believe the only way is to tell him if he loved God he would continue to try and change, and if he was not willing to keep fighting (and this is deeper than alcoholism- being gay doesn't mean one is constantly looking for their next 'fix) that he is unwelcome in our home until he changes? What is the criterion for that? Policing the 'progress' they are making? Is it always assumed homosexuals are promiscuous deviants? Generalized condemnation contributes to gays feeling hopeless. Does the pedophile scandal in the Catholic Church make all priests evil? Is it right to say all gay people are simply a genetic misprint solely dependent on choice? Rejection is not loving. Continuing communication leaves the door open to healing. Shutting it tight while ignoring seemingly lesser sins in the world is cruel. Loving a gay child while not condoning stereotypical behaviors are not excuses and denial. We are not contributing to the downfall of society by 'accepting' him. It is arrogant and self-righteous to assume this is a genetic predisposition made more viable by a home environment. Once again this is selective reasoning regarding hate the sin love the sinner. Only God knows the heart. Only He knows the struggle for us all, and PTL FOR THAT.
There is no reason to make someone who is struggling but repentant 'unwelcome' in the church or in one's home. We ALL are struggling with various sins, we all go through different types of trials and suffering. Nor can any of us 'fix' our sin through our own power. It is only by walking by the Spirit that we can put to death the deeds of the flesh. I know many homeless in the city who are struggling with various addictions but love Jesus, and locally there are many programs such as Celebrate Recovery that act as a safe and loving place to confront the sins and addictions in one's life.
We all stand under condemnation, not just any one type of sinner, and the only way to be pardoned is faith in Christ (John 4:16-21). Faith leads to walking in the light.
You don't need to kick him out of your home and definitely don't stop loving him! Nor does someone have to be at a specific level/make a certain quota of progress to be part of the church.
However in the church, we are to come aside those who are embracing sin to lovingly correct them. If they repent and seek help, this is good - for they are confessing their sin and walking in the light. If they reject help and love their sin, this is bad, for this can infect the body of Christ. The problem is not 'which sin', but whether they are rightly viewing that sin.
[As for genetic-behavioral predispositions, 'environment' include far more than 'family life', it encompasses social interactions, past hurts, media, etc].
The following is a discussion between Andrew Wilson and Rob Bell on homosexuality. Andrew Wilson states an acceptance of individual's within his church who are homosexual, but have died to that sin and now are in Christ. Rob Bell uses the defense that times are different now than in the day of Paul and if we want to see the church continue to grow we need to be more understanding. Andrew Wilson uses scripture and a series of tough questions. Rob Bell questions the interpretation of scripture. In the end Rob Bell was livid as a result of not being able to defend his position. The discussion is worth the watch. Andrew Wilson stayed with scripture and remained calm. http://youtu.be/XF9uo_P0nNI