Ephesians 1 talks about predestination. Are we all predestined to come into the knowledge of Christ or are there some people who are never predestined, therefore who are unable to believe and repent? What does predestination mean in scripture?
Ephesians 1:1 - 23
ESV - 1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, To the saints who are in Ephesus, and are faithful in Christ Jesus: 2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
For follow-up discussion and general commentary on the topic. Comments are sorted chronologically.
What about Bob Jennings answer? Are the only ones that are predestined the Saints that were in Ephesus that were faithful?
There may be a difference between the Church in Ephesus (the Revelation passage, which may include non Christians because it isn't specific) and the "Saints" in Ephesus, which would only include Christians. Only The Christians are the "us" who are predestined, according to the grammar of the passage.
Hi, later on Jesus gave John a message for these same Ephesians, read below please.
Revelation 2:1-5 NKJV
“To the angel of the church of Ephesus write, ‘These things says He who holds the seven stars in His right hand, who walks in the midst of the seven golden lampstands: “I know your works, your labor, your patience, and that you cannot bear those who are evil. And you have tested those who say they are apostles and are not, and have found them liars; and you have persevered and have patience, and have labored for My name’s sake and have not become weary. Nevertheless I have this against you, that you have left your first love. Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent and do the first works, or else I will come to you quickly and remove your lampstand from its place—unless you repent.
2 Peter 3:9 says that God is NOT willing that ANY should perish. God KNOWS the end from the beginning. He KNOWS who will choose to come to Him, but the choice is ours, other-wise, verses like 2 Peter 3:9 are lying.
28" And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. 29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified. (Romans 8:28-30 ESV)
44" No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day". (John 6:44 ESV)
10" And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, 11 though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls—12 she was told, "The older will serve the younger."13 As it is written, "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated." 14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! 15 For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." 16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." 18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. 19 You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?" 20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?" 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— As indeed he says in Hosea,
25 "Those who were not my people I will call 'my people,'
and her who was not beloved I will call 'beloved.'" (Romans 9:10-23, 25 ESV)
If it is truly (in context) Gods will that none should perish, then he is falling down on the job, since we know that some, no many do indeed perish.
There is a difference between God KNOWING who will choose Him through faith and deciding who. That idea turns God into a heartless monster who has no problem picking out a particular group and saying, quite literally, "To HELL with the rest of you."
The Biblical contextual definition of Foreknowledge is
"Fore-Loved. This means an intentional act on Gods part.
You know Mark, we don't agree on everything but this I agree with you on because the Bible speaks for Itself.
Romans 9:10-16 NKJV
And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), it was said to her, “The older shall serve the younger.” As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.” What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.” So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.
God shows mercy on some and passes others (Romans 9),This debate could go on and on, but this is the question that brings it all home. If God picked all woman to be saved or all men to be saved, who are we to question that? Christ did not die for any particular person in general, but for a particular people for a particular atonement; the atonement of His Elect.
Mark, foreknowledge does not mean 'fore-loved'. The term is the Greek 'prognōsin', a noun derived from the verb 'proginóskó', 'I know beforehand'. Pró is "before" and ginṓskō is 'knowledge'. Gnosis is general 'knowledge', Epignosis is 'true/relational knowledge," etc. There is no nuance of 'love' in the term, it simply speaks of knowledge one has before something happened or happens.
In Acts 26:5 Paul is saying the people knew of him before his conversion, not that the Jews 'loved him' before he was saved.
In II Pet 3:17 Paul warns that 'since you know of these things beforehand (have been forewarned, basically), be on your guard so you may not be carried away by the error of the lawless and fall from your secure position." He's not saying, 'since you already love these scoffers that are about to come. be on guard."
In Rom 8:29, it says that those God's elect are according to His foreknowledge, not fore-love. God loves the whole world, but only those who believe does He give the right to become children of God.
This is one of the most challenging concepts and doctrines in the Bible. It is also one that divides us, sometimes irrevocably, to the grief of our Lord Jesus. To paraphrase Romans 8, the pot drying from the kiln sits next to another pot. His impression is only to be a pot and grateful for it. The one destined for adornment and to be treasured has no knowledge of this. The other is to be chucked or used for some despicable service and crushed. There is no "fairness" or even justice about all of this. There cannot be.
Neither pot is worthy to be a sacrifice for themselves let alone any other pot. Neither even knows to want to be. Instead, the "potter" has decided before either was made, that one would be greatly adorned and the other discarded. When the choice was evident to the precious one, he could no more resist it than a tea pot set on a counter and filled with hot water and a tea bag. Yet, to that pot, to be of use and generate enjoyment; to be a delight to the potter's taste and smell; to His touch and eyes; and then gently cleaned to be put back in the cupboard carefully. That is the irresistible attraction to which the pot "yields". The whole distinction is whether one is the potter or the pot. It's hard to accept but it is the way it is.
God has planted eternity in our hearts.
My experience is, that is a predestined calling to Christ, what one does with it rests on the use of free will.
It has created a yearning that cannot be fulfilled by this world. There is a time and a season for everything, the seemingly sad thing is that not all seeds take root. You know the story, the birds eat some etc. Mk 4:3