Did Jesus die for everyone or just believers?
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Asked August 09 2019
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Mona Morrow
For follow-up discussion and general commentary on the topic. Comments are sorted chronologically.
Danny Hickman
To all who received him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. (John 1:12,13)
Our new lives in Christ begins the same way as his earthly life began. He was born of God, not of the will of the flesh nor of the will of a man.
Jesus died to satisfy his Father's righteous judgment of mankind's sin. He took mankind's punishment for sin; he died.
So if Jesus died in our place, why do even those who are saved still die? It's because the wages for sin is eternal death. Jesus died and would have stayed dead eternally, except that the Father resurrected him BACK to eternal life.
He was resurrected back to the glory he had with the Father before the world began. (Jn 17:5) The redeemed are likewise resurrected!
To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. But for those who are self-seeking and who reject truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger (Rom 2:7,8).
Paul is talking about the wrath that is shown from heaven in the here and now. He began talking about God's wrath in chpt 1:
"The wrath of God IS BEING REVEALED from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people..." (Rom 1:18). How? God gave us over to shameful lusts (vs 26).
We are without excuse, we can't judge each other, we all do the same things (Rom 2:1).
Not all are resurrected to eternal life, however.
Danny Hickman
Why are some people persistent in doing good? Why do they seek glory, honor and immortality, and other people don't? Romans 2:7`can be misunderstood. It can lead you to believe that Paul is saying, 'People are given eternal life for persistence in doing good and striving to gain immortality.' That ain't what he was teaching!
Some people are persistent in doing good because they are "called to belong to Jesus Christ" (Rom 1:6) Again in verse 7, "To all in Rome who are loved by God and called to be his holy people."
The call he speaks of isn't an alert or an invitation, it is a divine appointment.
Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God... (1 John 5:1). The context is to be brought forth by God. How? By the authority of the Holy Spirit.
I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper, to be with you forever, the Spirit of truth... he will be in you. (John 14:16,17) The Holy Spirit is a gift; we don't receive him by doing good. Even unbelievers do good.
Others are persistent in doing good to be well thought of by other people. Jesus said he came in his Father's name and was not received, but if another came in his own name he would be received, because men want glory from one another and don't seek the glory that comes from God (John 5:43,44).
Every good gift comes down from God (Jas1:17).
It's said a thousand different ways in scripture: Our help comes from God (Psalm 121:2).
Without him we can do nothing (John 15:5).
Danny Hickman
We CAN'T BELIEVE the gospel until we are enlightened (born again) by the Holy Spirit of God!
From where does our faith in God come? James 1:17 - it comes down as a gift from the Father of lights. We should know the gift to which he refers is the gift of faith. James is the faith teacher...
Hebrews 11 is an extensive teaching on faith; it's customarily referred to as 'the hall of faith,' a reference to being a great player at a profession and belonging to 'the hall of fame' in secular society.
The saints reputed to belong to this hall of faith is cited for what they accomplished due to their faith.
(Here it is):
And these all, THOUGH COMMENDED THROUGH FAITH, did not receive what was promised, since God provided something better for us, that apart from us they should NOT BE MADE PERFECT. (Heb 11:39,40)
They had some faith doled out to them, but it wasn't perfect (complete). They were used as WITNESSES for God of what could be accomplished by having faith in God.
Then the very next chapter:
We are to run our race looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith (Heb 12:2).
Founder ~ a person who establishes something.
Establish ~ to institute, or bring INTO BEING on a firm or stable basis; to bring about PERMANENTLY.
Jesus founded faith in Abraham and company; he perfects it in born again believers.
Reread 'their faith was not complete.' God didn't complete what HE BEGAN in them.
We don't produce or grow our own faith! It's a gift.
Praise the Lord!!
Danny Hickman
How is all of this erroneous teaching perpetuated? It's when major tenets of the Christian faith are wrongly taught.
The wages of sin is death (Rom 6:23).
The wages of sin is not eternal life in a fiery lake. But if you think for whatever reason that it is, you start out with that error as a finishing point, and you use other parts of scripture to prove that erroneous belief, and you lose the truth of those scriptures also.
Case in point: The parable of a rich man and a beggar; why did Jesus specify their life status? To correct erroneous beliefs about status.
It's a parable to teach us how we won't get to paradise by keeping the law. We also won't believe God of our own accord, even if someone came back from the dead and told us about the horrors of being dead!
The rich man was buried (he didn't receive the GIFT of salvation). Lazarus was taken to paradise by the angels. Why? Because God sent them to get him! It tells of God CHOOSING one and not another.
The disciples saw Jesus walk on water (Jn 6); you'd think that would convince them of who he was; it didn't!
Ten chapters later: Jn 16:29-3, the disciples say, 'Now you're speaking plainly, and we believe that you came from God.' Jesus' reply: "Do you now believe"? (vs 31).
He's being facetious; they still didn't believe! ("speaking plainly" never got anyone to believe!)
Next verse: 'you will all abandon me.'
All of that PROOF of who Jesus was!
Blessed are those who haven't SEEN, YET BELIEVE (Jn 20:29)
Danny Hickman
Continuing,
Blessed how?
We are blessed by God to believe; God has poured himself into us! That's a great blessing! That's HOW we come to believe what was foolishness to us before he poured himself into us! (that's scriptural) 1 Cor 1:21.
How else could the gospel go from being foolishness, to being believed BY SOME?
These truths I'm harping on are discounted because of the teaching that unbelievers suffer a fate MUCH WORSE than ceasing to live. That erroneous teaching got its start from people who don't realize what we lose when we lose our soul. see Mk 8:36
Dying just doesn't seem (to some of us) like enough punishment for a person who orchestrates the death of over 6,000,000 Jews. Such a person needs to spend eternity being punished for something like that.
That's how and why eternal, conscious torment was concocted and is believed by EVEN people who know NOTHING ABOUT THE BIBLE!! the reasoning is very worldly!
So there's a need to take the onus off God and put it on us.
The believer made the right choice, the unbeliever made the wrong choice; he brought eternal torment on himself, you can't blame God; etc.
If as I say God chooses, and the souls he doesn't choose are eternally tormented, that would make him unjust. Yes, it would seem so.
But if everybody loses their soul, (ceases to live) but God chooses some to revive to a life that never ends, that isn't a travesty of justice, that's a gift of grace to those whom he foreknew.
(Rom 8:29)
That's the gospel!!
Mark Vestal
Danny, I appreciate your passion! We are close in our understanding of how we arrive at having faith if viewed in light of God's foreknowledge of us. You, however, often mix Paul's gospel of God's grace in with Israel's kingdom gospels.
Please don't get me wrong! All scripture was indeed written FOR US and profitable for our learning (2 Tim 3:16). However, not all scripture was written directly TO US or where we find doctrine that applies today. This is why we "rightly divide the word of truth" when studying (2 Tim 2:15). It will come as a shock to many, as it did me initially, that Jesus Christ's earthly ministry was to and for 'the lost sheep of Israel' (Matt 10:5-6, Matt 15:24, John 4:22, Acts 11:19). The book of James was written directly to 'the 12 tribes scattered abroad' (James 1:1). The book of Hebrews was written to HEBREWS. The book of Revelation was written to 'the 7 churches in Asia' (Rev 1:4). What goes on in Hebrews through Revelation is what will occur during Daniel's prophetic 70th week of ISRAEL (the tribulation), while they await THEIR promised earthly kingdom of heaven that THEY were taught to pray for (Acts 1:6, Matt 6:9-13, Luke 11:1-4).
My point is that not only am I not a part of Israel, but God's chosen nation of priests to the world are currently in a fallen state. Where then does ANYONE find good news and doctrine for today? You, I, and all from Paul to now find it ONLY in Paul's 13 epistles during God's current dispensation of grace (Eph 3:2).
Danny Hickman
Wow! I can't believe you meant to say what your last statement says!! ONLY??
The epistles from Paul (you said this) is ONLY where we are to find our good news, and the doctrine (teachings) by which we are to live! Not the red letter teachings found in the 4 gospel books of Matt, Mark, Luke and John.
Not in all of those parables, all of that healing, not in all of those miracles (turning water to wine, walking on water, multiplying a few fish and feeding thousands, nor the Sermon on the Mount, but in Paul's INSTRUCTIONS to fledgling ministries (churches).
This is why I write on this site.
There is a close, day to day, hour to hour, minute by minute relationship to be had with God the Father through abiding in the Word. Not half of the Word, or some of it, but the whole Word of God.
It's worth far more than just a way to get to heaven after we die!!! I don't study the Word for assurance of salvation, or to check my status; none of that. I stay close to God the way he said:
"If you abide in me and my words abide in you..." Jn 15:7
"I have stored up your word in my heart..." Psalm 119:11
I don't know how many of my prayers would ignite and start burning in me if I ignored the Psalms.
Anyone who struggles to know how to start a conversation with God need only to read a Psalm of praise. Read aloud, not silently! Minister to yourself by the sound of each word.
It matters not which testament from which you read.
That's the ministry of the Word!
Mark Vestal
I asked the question 'where can we today find OUR good news and doctrine?' Do you stone your neighbors when they pick up sticks on the Sabbath? Do you refrain from eating pork? Do you follow all 613 points of the law? Why not?? Because we know THROUGH PAUL that ALL of these 'ordinances' were nailed to the cross (Col 2:14)! So, yes sir! I said it, I meant it, and I'm waging my post-salvation eternal heavenly rewards on it as it is from God's Word 'RIGHTLY DIVIDED'.
We, as outsiders of God's covenant promises with Israel, were strangers, with no hope, and without God in the world (Eph 2:12). It was not until revealed to Paul from Christ risen in glory from heaven that you and I had ANY hope without first having to go through the nation of Israel who still awaits their promised earthly kingdom of priests. But because of their fall, WE TODAY until Christ returns to earth (Eph 3:2), are offered salvation by having faith alone in Him.
Show me anywhere outside of the epistles of Paul that salvation is the FREE gift from God accepted by us by placing our faith in Christ and the blood he shed for the forgiveness of all sin on the cross. Show me how we died with Him, were buried, but rose with Him and defeated death and sin along with Him by simply having faith. When are we told that we are currently forming 'the body of Christ'?
2 Cor 5:16
"Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.
Danny Hickman
I think we're talking past each other; we're not having the same conversation. Please excuse me. Enjoy your day brother!
Mark Vestal
Thank you, brother Danny! No, you made a good point. I should have used the word 'primarily' instead of 'only'. I have hope that our chats do help others in some way. They help me at least! Have a good day as well sir!