For follow-up discussion and general commentary on the topic. Comments are sorted chronologically.
Paul states in numerous passages of Scripture that in Christ there is neither male or female. God is not interested in male nor female, He looks at the heart. God uses whoever he desires. You can't make the argument that there was only one female judge among so many male judges. If he used one then that means he uses females in leadership positions. Paul also stated: help those WOMEN who labored with me in the Gospel. The bible teaches that in all thy getting, get understanding. God uses whoever he chooses to use. There is no scripture that says God only uses men to teach or Pastor. In Christ we are one: no race, no age, no gender, no status...
I say women can be pastors BECAUSE in Jesus we are neither male nor female but are all ONE in Christ. (Galatians 3:28)
2 Thessalonians 1
1 Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy,
To the church of the Thessalonians in God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ:
2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
God’s Final Judgment and Glory
3 We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is fitting, because your faith grows exceedingly, and the love of every one of you all abounds toward each other, 4 so that we ourselves boast of you among the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that you endure, 5 which is manifest evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you also suffer; 6 since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, 7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe,[a] because our testimony among you was believed.
(2 Timothy 3:15-17) 2.2 Timothy 3:16
All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
" There is no scripture that says God only uses men to teach or Pastor. In Christ we are one: no race, no age, no gender, no status"
Obviously there is discernment and status...
"7, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ."
If "all Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness" then the following clear and articulate statement must also be true!
1 Timothy 2:11-14
11 Let a woman learn in silence with all submission. 12 And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence. 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression.
Timothy does not in any way deny women their place in the order of things not does he deny women their ministry, he merely states that Women have no authority over men. There are many scriptures in the old testament that illustrate that men are the reflection of The Glory of God and women are the reflection of the glory of man.
The context Gal 3:28 is that of salvation by grace and not by observing the law. In the old covenant, women and gentiles were inferiors. Whereas in 1 Timothy, the context is Paul's address on the authority within the church. Since Paul said both things, he could not be contradicting himself. In 1 Timothy, it is clear that Paul established a hierarchy and women should be subordinate to men in church authority. I support women's equality but I have to accept with humility to the God on this.
Philippians 1: 15-16
Some preach Christ out of envy...
Some out of love...
We as women should know our love for Christ. And how God wants us to be for Him and our place with Him, Through His word and the conviction of The Holy Spirit with our spirit. If a man is able to learn from the way we share our love for God, it should not be our fault, but the way that God somehow worked.
If the love for Christ in our hearts causes us to write, sing songs, dance or simply cry as an expression of worship, Christ is still preached through God. This is why I think we are women for God.
How? In what way does this pertain to the question "Can a woman be a pastor or preacher?"
Can women preach? - Yes!
Can women teach? - Yes!
Can women shepherd or lead? - Yes?
Can women have authority over men? - No!
I reckon the question is poorly put; it should probably have been posed thusly - Should women be ordained ministers or priests? The answer is a resounding NO!
I totally agree with Simon!
I personally know of a woman who is a church planter. Not because no man will plant a church, but because when God called she answered. She is given visions by God and she obeys, no matter what the cost. Her education, her dreams, her seemingly shining future all exchanged to reach out to the people where the clouds are a sea. She is a pastor with lowly faithful demeanor. She never introduces herself as a pastor would be. Rather she waits for God to let her heart be revealed in those she meets. She has stayed longer in the presence of God that when she speaks, I believed she's lost all hold on reality. Then I realize who am I to question who God has qualified. The poor, community of the church that God has started there is slowly growing. Where before she came as a pastor, called to plant a church, no other pastor thought to look back at.
There are many more women I know of who are pastors and ministers. God shows them to me and I am simply humbled to be a mere woman to God. Sometimes I ask, if this is considered as a righteousness from God, to have that holy burden and happen to be a woman...
They are all amazing ministers and pastors who have taken the time to share God with me. Most of all they shared God. Who am I to say why should they do that?
Useful for God and used by God are two different things. We women should be the latter. Regardless of titles, which only, truly God can credit to us.
People love to pull the "culture" argument on this issue, but it simply doesn't apply. Paul appeals to the order at *creation* when he says woman should submit to man (1 Timothy 2). That's pre-Fall. God has an important order here that people shouldn't be trifling with just because the culture has run amok with feminism.
Women are not allowed to teach men because teaching automatically carries authority, especially if the Word of God is being taught. The Word IS authority.
Of course, women can prophesy, but that's different from teaching. And she's still supposed to have a sign of authority on her head, in the form of a head covering. And again, the "culture" argument fails because Paul points to the angels as the reason, something quite separate indeed from culture and era.
Romans 16:26. Acts 17:11 Personal life experience or personal belief cannot replace the Holy Scriptures, the inspired Word of God! 2 Timothy 3:16
By studying God's word and accepting by faith that it is his divine will for us, one can come to know God better and build a personal relationship with him.
Any relationship with God is a very personal thing, not to be spoken of lightly Matthew 7:6
Jesus gave His apostles the great commission Matthew 28:15-20 so that they might go out and preach the good news.
God does not change He is constant and His promises must be fulfilled 3.Luke 24:44
So from my prospective as one seeking to become more Christ like and closer to God, when I read in the Holy Scripture that 1 Timothy 2:11-14 “11 Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness. 12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet. 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression.
When studying scripture you have to take the bible in it's totality. You can't just use one scripture. The letters of Paul were specific to the group he was writing to. In order to understand much of what he was writing you have to understand the circumstances as to why he addresses a certain issue. There's only one group where he deals with incest. It was a problem in that group. There were women who helped Paul in ministry, and we don't know whether they were teachers or preachers or what. In the instance where he states the man is the head of the woman; he talking husband and wife. If I wasn't married the only women I would be over would be my daughters at home. Deborah was a female who GOD gave authority over an entire nation, men, women and soldiers. Yes it is OT but it is still scripture. And does that mean you brothers who have female bosses are going to quit your job to line up with the Word? How far would the Church get if women kept silent, which Paul also said.
I agree that Paul was speaking to a specific group concerning certain issues but I don't agree he is talking to husbands and wives concerning the divine order of authority,headship.
Deborah was used of God as a prophet and judge but she did not seek leadership she conveyed to Barak Gods message for him to lead encouraging him to lead. Women of God should be encouraging what Paul was saying about the head of the woman is the man, praying for the men in their lives to be the leaders God has designed them to be.Does this mean that we women are spiritually unequal to men? I don't think so, rather we have our role and they have theirs which is to lead.
Concerning jobs and bosses being women over men, again Paul is addressing the women and men of the church and Gods divine order of authority.
In closing God knows best his design is always fail proof. God bless!
In this instance Paul is speaking to the men and women of the church in Corinth.
As pointed out above, Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. This however does not mean that they are to perform the same functions. A dollar bill is worth a dollar in change-- equal value. Men and women are of equal value. They have different roles. Try putting a dollar bill in a parking meter, Now take a thousand dollars in coins on you next vacation. It can be done but it is forced. 1Ti 2:11Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. 12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. Even some men should not teach or preach in a leadership position Jam 3:1 My brethren, be not many masters[teachers], knowing that we shall receive the greater condemnation.
quote: "If education were a qualification for ministry, the majority of Jesus' disciples would not have been qualified."
Apart from the discussion, this is a rediculous statement, being over 3 years in training withe Jesus himself can hardly be called "uneducated" :-)
The Bible is the Word of God. Men can only be pastors, elders, deacons. There are excellent areas women can serve such as Sunday School, Female Bible Study groups, Jail Ministry for women. Women are needed to teach which is discussed in the Bible. I would not attend a Church who has a Woman Pastor. I feel in today's world there is such a need to make women equal to men in every aspect of life. We cannot change the direct teachings of the Bible for this tiny speck of time to satisfy some type of equality in the Ministry.
The Holy Spirit has the answer. Since we are all considered the Bride of Jesus, are men not included because to us as we know, a bride is a woman? The Scriptures speak to us if we read and listen to the awesome Gift! The Holy Spirit.
Then Peter said unto them, "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." (Acts 2:38)
Gifted with the very Spirit of God are we who have repented our sins and believed upon the risen Lord of the universe. Promised by Christ before He ascended to the heavenlies, the Holy Spirit will lead us in the paths of righteousness. Heed the Word of the Lord and proceed in every good work until the Son of heaven returns for His holy bride!
Beloved, we should not lose focus that the death of Christ on the Calvary removed every limitations to approaching Him and the Father and carrying out His works/assignments. There is no more difference between Jews and Gentiles for ALL are now equal before God Almighty as well as man and woman.
So if God calls a woman to be ordained as His Servant to preach, is there anything wrong with that? Or are we saying that none of these women being ordained as Pastors etc were called into the Ministry by God but rather they called themselves?
Beloved there are things that seemeth good in the eyes of men that are way off in the sight of God who is the ultimate and best judge of ALL generations and worlds! Therefore let's not concern ourselves with things that will not take us closer to God and concentrate on the divine assignment given by Christ in Mathew 28:18-22 when He was being taken to Heavens and make Disciples of ALL Nations for Him and allow Him to decide who is qualified in what capacity to carry on with these highly assignments.
At the judgement Throne, all answers will be answered correctly without any room for objections! What will we benefit from these if at the Throne we are being made to answer for misleading people to believe that it wasn't right to ordain women as Ministers or vice versa?
For me seeking for the lost souls is more important than deliberating over who is qualified to preach and to who and what occasion! This argument will not take us anywhere meaningful rather it might lead some people astray and bring negative attitudes towards the already ordained women ministers.
Jesus said that seeds should be gathered in the first place before separating them into which crops they belong as well as the weeds amongst them!
So let's focus on Jesus and Jesus alone while seeking the lost souls to repent and come to Him for His Kingdom-ship appointments. Christ is interested in sinners returning to Him than who led them to Him, though those who led them will be rewarded accordingly by God and I am not sure that God will say that this woman you were not right to preach to this man to come to me but should have left it for a man to do!
Thank you and remain blessed.
I wish theological debates could be done without calling each other names. I have been following the articles without comment since we should all make our judgement and use of scriptures without prejudice. The most deadly wars have been fought around religious conceit, doctrinal hard line positions and elitism. The church does not need more divisions but love and reaching out to each other, but do not suggest we ignore sound doctrine; but to differentiate between negotiable and absolute doctrinal position. I don't think the issue of women in ministry is an issue of life and death. Both women and men serve where God has called and positioned them. The issue of character, calling and positioning are important to both men and women. If one disputes, this then they are my friends regardless and not enemies. Spiritual chauvinism and prejudice has costed Africa alot even in political leadership. If Africa is to arise in this hour and take its place, then all those he calls are needed both men and women. Let's accept all those that God calls and forge ahead regardless of gender and be a blessing to this continent. History shows that this is possible. God respects order and protocol and men are given first priority but when they are not forthcoming God can use either gender. He is sovereign and cannot box Him in our doctrinal positions and theology. He refers to the church as a bride and Him as groom. Men do not like that.
Who do Christian follow? Is it Jesus Christ or Paul?
Did Paul say that God had instructed him to stop women from being preachers? Have you considered that this was Paul's personal opinion?
God has called many women to be preachers. In my prayer cell, we have women who speak to God directly like a man speaking to a fellow man.
We need to be led by the spirit and not just accept whatever is written in the Bible without checking it spiritually.
Paul had his own personal opinion and he is entitled to it. It is only where Paul said that God had instructed him on certain things that his authority should be respected. On issues where he gives his personal opinion, it is up to the reader to decide.
Lastly, I have been blessed to have got visions of heaven and hell. I also leave my body and travel to far places with the Lord. However, my testimony does not become law and authority that every Christian must follow.
2 Tim 3:16 states that ‘all scripture is inspired by God...’ That includes the books Paul wrote. Peter referred to Paul’s writings as scripture (2 Pet 3:15-16). The Bible is mankind's sole authority regarding matters of doctrine. If you don't recognize the Bible as the plumb line of truth, what in the world do you have? Cast down the Bible’s authority, as Richard has, or tell me 'the Holy Spirit' is your prime authority, and you’ve flung the door wide open for deception, evidenced by the unbiblical practices prevalent in churches across the globe, practiced under the supposed guidance of the Holy Spirit. Richard’s spirit travel is a perfect example. This is a common occult practice! Yes, Paul was *caught up* to the 3rd heaven, but he didn’t just *choose* to go there.
As I explained in my previous post, 1 Tim 2:11-14 is quite clear. This is not just Paul's opinion (as he stated was the case in 1 Corinthians 7); this is the Lord's command for His church, as is made clear by the references to the order at creation and the deception of Eve.
For those who cite Deborah as an example of God's supposed endorsement of women in authority over men, remember that during the time of Israel's judges, the nation was corrupt (Judges 21:25). During extreme times and/or when men do not step up and fulfill their divine call to lead, God may temporarily use a woman as a stop-gap. Read Isaiah 3:1-12, and see if you think God speaks of women ruling (having authority) as a good thing.
2 Thessalonians 1:11 With this in mind, we constantly pray for you, that our God may make you worthy of his calling, and that by his power he may bring to fruition your every desire for goodness and your every deed prompted by faith.
Seems to me God has our back here. So any good act or act of faith has God supporting us. If you don't want a woman pastor then don't go to her church.
One Sunday the Sunday School teacher (a man) was absence. An assistant had never been found for the class despite many appeals for a volunteer.The Sunday School superintendent (a man) said he was not prepared to teach because he thought he would be absent.Therefore there would be no lesson and the class could just talk to one another. A student suggested that the scripture be read. After it was read there was an opportunity for comments. After a brief silence and no comments, I gave a summary of the lesson. No one else commented. Afterwards I was convicted that I (a woman) should volunteer to be a substitute teacher of this class. Regardless of whether you think it is ok for a woman to teach an adult class of men and women, when no man will volunteer to be a teacher or substitute of a class, a woman teacher is better than not having anyone to teach.
Mary your last sentence is the most compelling. Romans says how will they hear if no one is sent. It didn't say no man. You go girl and thank you for listening to the Holy Ghost
All of these ideas sound reasonable by today's standards. However, God has not changed. He operated differently in the old testament, to set the stage for when Jesus would come. Jesus is not all "love". He does not hesitate to call some "generation of vipers". That being said, the words he sent through his apostles set the stage for the operation of the church. The church is still full of people with the same ideas, problems and challenges, etc that has plagued man from the beginning of time.
The fact that women and men are different is no new thing. That they have different roles is no new thing. Neither men or women are more important than the other, but they have and will always have different roles. If we cannot accept what God says, "then choose you this day whom you will serve". God said that every man's way is right in his own eyes. It is this way of thinking that has led to churches looking the other way to people living together before marriage, gay people not only being taken into full fellowship, but given leadership positions in the church.
I say again, women are very important to families and to the growth of the church community. The roles they play are essential for a healthy church community. When God sends us his will, whether you call it a law or guidelines, that is what he expects us to do. For me that is good enough. I try to treat my ideas of what is right, wrong, or better than what God said as man's way of becoming my own "god", knowing what is best for me. Sometimes it is hard to understand the why's of what God has said, but faith leads me to say, "thy will not my own".
The last time I read the Bible, God himself said that he had powered his spirit upon all flesh. And that God the holy spirit dwells in us all. Do women have very little holy spirit? When are we going to love to walk in LOVE?
I am not sure what love to walk in love has to do with a woman teaching from the pulpit, but to answer the earlier question, do women do not have "very little" holy spirit. I do not think that the holy spirit only parses out a little influence. We however can limit the influence that the holy spirit has in our lives. That too has nothing to do with whether a woman should preach or teach to the congregation. The KJV in I Tim 2:12 states that" but I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence". Context obviously leads us to know that this is in the congregation. I am not sure why it is so hard to accept what the bible says. I know it goes against the teaching of today's society, but God says that his ways are not our ways.
To want to follow the bible does not mean that we do not want to walk in love.
Amen and amen and amen, Laurn. You do not stand alone in your love for the Word of God.
Laurn, the first person to preach to me the gospel of salvation (born again Christianity) was a woman preacher. She was the first person to teach me the concept of trinity.
Then, the very person who taught me and helped me to get released from the bondage of hatred was a female. It was in that woman's house that I confessed Christ. I shed tears before her. In addition, she gave me her handkerchief to clear my nose and wipe away my sweat. She took me through spiritual deliverance and I was indeed delivered. Today, I am a born again Christian with vivid evidence that Christ is Lord because two women preached to me. I have been inspired by books written by women, most importantly Joyce Meyer's Approval Addiction.
Laurn, you will struggle to keep women silent in Church. Women are now unstoppable. They are fully filled with the Holy Spirit; they prophesy and perform miracles in the name of Christ. They have led millions and millions of people to Christ. In addition, you cannot un-do our conversion because we have evidence that the Women preached to us the true Gospel of Jesus Christ and we received the baptism of the Holy Spirit. They is also a Woman Preacher in London who the Lord instructed me to help in Ministry.
The Lord told me that He chose her and that I should support her. How can I disobey such a commandment? My advice on this matter is for us to individually consult the Lord. The Holy Spirit will give us guidance on this matter.
There is a scripture in Ephs. 4 (endavoring to keep the unity of the Spirit until we come into the unity of the knowledge). I personally believe in Women pastors but if you don't it's alright. It's our belief in Jesus Christ that matters. One man esteem one day above another but let each be persuaded in his own mind. God Bless
Richard, it is no surprise that women have had and are having a great influence in the furtherance of Christianity. I certainly do not know all the nuisances of how you came to be a believer, but I do know one thing as well as I know anything. God's word is inspired, true and everlasting. Even if the women you mentioned that led you to a faith in Christ were pastors of a church, it does not change the word of God. It does not mean that your conversion is not true. But God has a plan, a way of carrying out his will. We may stray from the path he asks us to follow. Even if good things sometimes happen while off the path he shows us, we cannot decide on our own that what he plainly tells us is not his perfect will for us. His intent is that we go back to his word and get on the path he has chosen for us.
One of my grandsons asked why God does not just do away with evil. Good question, but there is no answer that is easy to understand. We just have to go back to God's word to understand as well as we can that God has a plan. We cannot and will not understand all of it now, but we must trust by faith that his way is right, even though the understand we have seems to differ from what his word says.
You say that the Lord told you to support her and that you cannot disobey such a commandment. I am not suggesting that you do. But if what the Lord says to you does not come from his written word, then any instructions you or us get should be checked against the bible.
- The Bible never specifically forbids woman pastors. Indeed, our modern pastors are very different from the 'elder' system of the early church. We definitely should look at the principles and use them for the basis of their church group guidelines, but one should not set up a new system of "law" that others must conform to.
- For those that disallow women pastors in any circumstance - do you have many older men appointed as elders over the whole city, or are you isolated with many 'elders' for just one church group within the city? [Inconsistent application of scripture] Are the elders of the city without blemish, living godly lives where no one can accuse them from err, with Christian children who are behaved, who have never divorced their first wife, not prone to course speech, not greedy, hospitable, etc? (Titus 1:5-9). Do we treat a woman pastor as 'worse' than the ~40% of pastors with secret porn addictions? [Bias in application of scripture].
- Paul does say that wives should not 'teach and usurp (seize) authority from their husbands. These two terms go together, like 'hit-and-run'. Teaching should not be isolated from the seizing of authority. This does not mean that a) a wife could never teach alongside her husband or teach under her husband's authority or b) that all women can never teach any men in any fashion or that c) Widows can't teach other men, etc.
What it does teach is that a wife cannot seize spiritual leadership of her husband.
Jennifer, I think our differences relate to our basis. My basis is the bible. If one chooses to decide which of God's words are applicable and which we can ignore and replace with our own, then we have not common basis.
We do not have new "laws", we have God's own words. I am willing to accept that. Even if some of our pastors are not all they should be, that does not change God's expectations. I have my own trouble following God's words, but I have to keep trying each day. Because I find it hard to live up to God's word does not make me question the validity of what the bible says.
If you are happy with your parsing of God's word, so be it. Each of us is only responsible for how we treat God's word. God bless you.
Laurn, both of us are making claims based in scripture. I fully agree the Bible is valid and we should not 'change' God's words to suit us. That is part of my point. There is a difference in basing a claim in what scripture actually says, vs. a claim speculating, albeit based on scripture, on what that scripture means and trying to set rules for others off that speculation.
It also is not incorrect to 'parse' out a verse. To parse is to examine a sentence (or verse) and its structure. This can help us understand what it means. Context is also helpful, as well as correlating the verse with other scripture, as scripture will not contradict itself. For example, understanding Greek hendiadys lets us realize that in the phrase 'teach and usurp authority', they are linked. Understanding that scripture does not contradict itself means I Tim 2:11-15 is not in contradiction to Acts 18:24-26. Understanding that 'didaskos' is used over ten times in I Timothy, all related to spiritual instruction, helps us understand (as well as context) that the concern is spiritual teaching and not 'any teaching in general'. Understanding that 'gunaiki' means either 'wife' or 'woman', we have to look to context to find out which. Considering Paul uses the example of Adam/Eve, and mentions 'full submission' and 'childbearing', then 'wife' has far stronger support via direct context.
I have more details under my answer.
Jennifer, you apparently have studied Greek. I have not. However, the real question is God's word only revealed in the Greek. If so, we Protestants are no different from the Catholics that must have a Pope to interpret God's word. I think, and it is my opinion, that God preserved his word in the English bible. We can get to the truth by comparing scripture with scripture, and do not have to rely on the Greek to explain away what is plainly stated in English. I am not saying that looking at the Greek test is without merit, as I use Strong's concordance as a guide. However, to understand Greek, one has to be taught. That can allow one to be swayed by the philosophies of the one teaching. That should raise a flag of caution. If one can compare scripture within the language of the bible and our native tongue, we are on more sure footing.
To me the bible is pretty clear in the English that I understand. Paul, Timothy, and other writers of the old and new testament are not that hard to understand, although the words the Lord sent through them may be hard to accept. It does not threaten my faith or beliefs for others to try to use Greek to explain what is clear in English. Each of us will be held responsible for how well we study the Word that has been given to us. For that reason, if you are content with what you understand about this subject, great. I have no problem in agreeing to disagree.
No English translation (or any translation into other languages) is going to be 100% free from error. Words and symbols don't always directly translate from one culture to another. Our English translations are in general very good, but that is not a reason to treat them as infallible. Translations vary in quality, as well. Literal translations like the NASB tend to be far more faithful to the underlying text than paraphrases like the NLT, for example.
One does not need to be 'taught' Greek by a formal teacher to study Greek. I have been self-studying koine Greek for seven or so years now. I started small, just building vocabulary and doing rough translations of verses based off some of the easier to use lexicons. I've since broadened sources (lexicons, commentaries, various translations, other ancient greek writings, history of the word use in the church, instructional materials on grammar, etc).
There are so many nuances, plays on words, analogies, and points that are rarely brought out in the English translations. One does not 'need to know' the Greek for any core doctrine, but it can help for general Bible study or for difficult and debated passages like I Tim 2:11-15.
S. Michael Houdmann has an excellent answer on translations here:
Manfred T. Brauch has some good related articles in his book, the "Hard Sayings of Paul".
Timothy 2:12- says it as well as any other scripture. I think we have to be very careful though with scriptures like these that we do not hold it over a woman in a power mode, yet we must stay faithful to God's word. We (men) are told to love our wives as Christ loved the church. The scripture also tells woman to respect your husbands. Obviously there are conditions like a woman being physically or emotionally abused, in cases like this it would be wise to seek help from your pastor or elders in the church.
My question is since my wife and I were married by a female pastor are we really married? We've been married for just a few months shy of 24 years and have 3 wonderful boys...but have we been living actually outside the realm of marriage...in sin, if you will? Are any/all couples who have been married by women pastors actually married? I'm not trying to facetious or anything, just wanting to know the truth to this...Thanks!
Yes, you're still married. You took vows before God and before witnesses. A civil ceremony is not even necessary to be married. (Adam and Eve, for example).
It is actually the state, not God, that gives only certain people the 'authority' to conduct marriages. It is God who institutes governments and we are to submit to laws, so I do not think there is anything wrong with a woman conducting a civil marriage. She is submitting to the laws of the land and operating within its rules, not seizing authority for herself.
Morally there is a case to be made that she should never have been appointed as a pastor, and hence never been granted a license to conduct marriages by the state - but that does not affect the point that your marriage is both morally valid and legal.
May I put the "spanner in the works" !
The discussion is all based upon the assumption that the many Church systems we have inherited down through the ages is legitimate, and bible based. This, I believe is untrue, for the following reasons which I would like to put forward for evaluation.
The word Church is the accepted translation for the Greek word EKKLESIA which was mentioned only 3 times by Jesus, all in Matthew's account of the Gospel, and the 4th time in Acts 2:47 (you won't find it in the NIV, LB,GN,NEB,NASB,RS,ML but you will find it in most especially original Greek Scripture4youinterlinearGreek) Strongs Concordance says it occurs 111 times. If you think something untoward is happening you could be right!
The first time Ekklesia is mentioned is in Matthew 16:18 where Jesus is reported by the translators as saying" You are Peter, and on this rock, I will build My Church" The problem is that this is a patently wrong translation because the Greek has Jesus saying something like this " YOU ARE PETER [Petros, a pebble, sliver of a rock] AND ON THIS THE ROCK [Greek "te petra" the rock which always in scripture refers to ALHYM YHVH, the name of the Creator Almighty Father, or in 1 Cor 10:4 to Jesus]
I WILL REBUILD THE HOUSEHOLDS [Greek "oikodomeso", root is oikos] OF THOSE I WILL CALL OUT OF THE ASSEMBLY [Greek "ekkelsian"].
When Did Jesus do this? Well we find it in Acts 2 where the Holy Spirit in poured out of heaven and into the temples of each of His loyal disciples (about 120 of them men and women) then later into about 3,000 Jewish men (Ac 2: 37-41) in JERUSALEM, 30 AD. SHAVUOT,Pentecost, only 50 days after PESACH, Passover.
EKKLESIA is a composite Greek word : Ek = out of as in Exodus; KALEO = to call; KLESSIA = assembly. So on SHAVUOT about 3,120 Jews were called out of their assembly into the glorified body of our Lord Jesus the Christ as described in Acts Chapter 2. Later Gentiles were called, they and their households (Act 16:31) "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you and your HOUSEHOLD will be saved" This is all by the action of the Holy Spirit, the third person of the Truine ALHYM (Ge 1:1 original Hebrew, with the added name YHVH, in Ge 2:4 ALHYM YHVH).
The third time EKKLESIA appears is again by Jesus in Matthew 18:17 where the word appears in this verse twice referring to the future disciplining procedures for errant disciples in the EKKLESIA.
We are warned to build our houses on aon a strong foundation of ROCK not sand by Jesus (Mt 21- 29) We are warned by the Holy Spirit through Paul to "Do not despise prophecies [Holy Scripture]. Test all things; hold fast what is good. Abstain from every form of evil." (1 Thes 5: 20-22).
We are to be to be fair minded like Bereans who "received the word with all readiness, and searched the Scriptures daily to find out whether these things were so." (Ac 17:11).
Under the anointing of the Holy Spirit Paul warned the disciples, the Ekklesia of Ephesus " For I know this, that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock." (Ac 20:29) 2 Peter Chapter 2 details the external and internal attacks.
The glorified Jesus warns us through John through a vision that there is now (90's) in existence a "synagogue of Satan" (Rev 2:9; repeated for our attention in 3:9). This was of the Jews who desired the resurrection of the Temple system and Gentiles resulting in the nascent church system (the 2nd Century is known by Church historians as "the age of the bishops" and priests and parishes. This system was recognised by the Roman Emperor Constantine 1, the Great along with other pagan religions and became the state church i the 360's (all other religions were banned at the Emperor's authority and the Roman sword) and church attendance became compulsory for all on Sunday! The 1517 "Reformation never happened." Rome did not reform and murdered thousands (eg Hugenots in France)
I think if we would step back and take a good look at the situation, we can look back to Genesis 3:15.
I love that God made me a woman, a wife and mother too. He has specific jobs put forth for me and only me to accomplish. He loves me and helps me stay on the correct path. If I find myself in a place that seems questionable, I fast, pray and stick my nose in my bible...kick pride to the curb and do it His way. Being a woman isn't less than...it's different and I love it!
I want to say this about women Pastors.
1. A woman carried the WORD, for 9 months.
2. A Woman was the first one to carry the News back to the Apostles, that THE WORD, has risen.
3 God made a donkey speak, so, why can't HE
call women to preach and be Pastors.