Is the church missing during the events from Rev 4 to Rev 20?

The church is not explicitly mentioned between Rev 3:22 and Rev 20:16. Does that mean the church is missing during these events, such as would happen if the church was raptured?

Clarify Share Report Asked April 01 2018 Mini Anonymous

Community answers are sorted based on votes. The higher the vote, the further up an answer is.

Closeup Jennifer Rothnie Supporter Housewife, Artist, Perpetually Curious
There are a number of factors to consider in regards to the particular argument that the church not being explicitly mentioned is proof that the church is not involved in any of the events of the vision.

#1 It is an argument from perceived silence. The book of Esther, for example, doesn't explicitly mention God. That doesn't mean that God was not involved in events nor that the Jews did not worship God. For another example, the term 'church' is not present in 2 Tim., Titus, Heb., 1 & 2 Peter, 1 & 2 John, and Jude! A particular term not being used in a portion of scripture is not proof that the object doesn't exist or is not involved.

#2 The entire book of Revelation is written to God's bond-servants (Rev 1:1), a common term for Christians in the New Testament which is used of both Jew and Gentile believers alike who are truly slaves of Christ (I Cor 7:23, Rom 1:1, Rev 22:3, etc.) This term is more personal than the general/corporate term for church/the assembly as it only refers to true believers, whereas even false believers can infiltrate the church.

More specifically, the whole of Revelation is written to 7 specific churches (Rev 1:4.) While we benefit from it as well, there is no reason to suspect that John did not intend the rest of the book for those churches.

#3 Chapter breaks are man made. There is no chapter 'division' in the original manuscripts, and hence that one term is used in some chapters and not others is meaningless since the term is used in the book itself and there is no introduction of a new audience.

#4 The narrative style changes after the first three chapters from epistle-style to apocalyptic vision. It is understandable that the language and terminology would also shift accordingly. We should actually expect that many things in the book would not be described literally, but with apocalyptic symbolism.

#5 Revelation finds some parallels with the apocalypse spoken of by Jesus in Matthew 24. The early church, both Jew and Gentile, thought that Matthew 24 referred at least in part to themselves. This is why Christian believers noted the signs and took warning, fleeing to Pella and other cities through the mountains during a temporary lift in the Roman siege. History doesn't record a single death of a Christian from the siege. The ethnic Jews did not take warning, remaining behind, and history records their population being cut by about half (~4 million to ~ 2 million) in the 3 and a half year siege. If the events Jesus spoke of referred at least in part to a mixed church, then the events of Revelation should refer at least in part to a mixed church.

Understanding that the evidence heavily leans towards an early date pre-siege for the writing of Revelation and not 95AD can help shed light on why the early Christians thought the book had relevance to them.

#6 There are many probable allusions to the church in Revelation, so the book should not be approached with the preconception that the church is not being described in any of those passages. Rather, the text should be approached in a neutral fashion in light of its context, and common views can be examined for/against without pre-reading personal bias into the text.

Some examples of verses where the church may be referred to are:

Rev 4:24/Rev 5:8 (One possible interpretation of the 24 elders is that they represent the church by the 12 tribes + 12 Apostles; prayers of the saints (church) are also mentioned.)
Rev 7:4/Rev 14:1 (One possible interpretation of the 144,000 is that they represent the full church of God.)
Rev 12:10-11 (brethren; triumphed by the blood of lamb and testimony, cf I Jn 5:10) 
Rev 12:17 (the rest of her (Israel's) offspring; those who keep Jesus' commands, cf Rom 9:6-26, Gal 6:16)
Rev 13:10/Rev 14:12 (the saints; keep the commands of God)

April 01 2018 5 responses Vote Up Share Report

Mini Shirley H Wife, mother, veteran in the spiritual war we all face!
1Corinthians 13:12,13, "For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just I am known."

Deuteronomy 29:29, "The secret things belong to the Lord our God, but those things which are revealed belong to us and our children forever..."

Psalm 31:19,20, "Oh, how great is Your goodness, 
Which you have laid up for those who trust in You
In the presence of the sons of men!
You shall hide them in the secret place of Your presence
From the plots of man;
You shall keep them secretly in a pavilion
From the strife of tongues."

Psalm 32:7,8 "You are my hiding place;
You shall preserve me from trouble;
You shall surround me with the songs of deliverance.
I will instruct you and teach you in the way you should go; 
I will guide you with My eye."

Enoch - think E-Not...
He lived in the pre flood era. He lived in the midst of death. He surrendered himself to God. 

Genesis 5:21-24, "Enoch lived sixty-five years, and begot Methuselah. After he begot Methuselah, Enoch walked with God three hundred years, and had sons and daughters. So all the days of Enoch were three hundred and sixty five years. And Enoch walked with God; and he was not, for God took him."

Enoch surrendered his life to God. (E-Not)

Hebrews11:5, "By faith Enoch was taken away so that he did not see death, and was not found because God had taken him, for before he was taken he had his testimony, that he pleased God."

In Acts chapter 11 we have the beginning of the church. It was born amidst persecution. It is a mystery, a secret that had been in the heart of God.

Enoch communes with God for 300 years, during trying times. His faith stood fast!

As he grew in spirit, he became E-Not! Daniel 2:47, "The king answered Daniel, and said, "Truly your God is the God of God's, the Lord of kings, and a revealed of secrets, since you could not reveal this secret." Indeed!

Revelation 6:15-17, "And the Kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, and every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains, and said to the mountains and rocks, 'Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is as to stand?'" (These are unbelievers, no matter how strong, they cannot stand.)

Romans 1:18-32 describes God's wrath on the unrighteous, the unbeliever, those who refuse Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior!

But, Romans 1:16, " For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew and also for the Greek." 

The believer, the church, the Body of Christ, compose the Bride! We are not appointed to suffer the wrath of God. We are saved because we are hid in Jesus. We are walking in faith like E-Not! 

Matthew 5:8, "Blessed are the pure in heart, 
For they shall see God."

2 Timothy 4:7, "I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith."

As the church walks through this world may we lift up our hearts in the Hope that the rapture comes soon.

November 29 2020 0 responses Vote Up Share Report

Mini James Kraft 74 year old retired pipeline worker
First Thessalonians 4:13-18 4-9 John 3:36. Second Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means, for that day shall not come except the falling away first, our departure from earth to heaven, and the man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition. 

Apostasia is departure. First Corinthians 15:51-53 The rapture of the church. The church age, the day of grace, Romans 11:6, ends before the 7 year tribulation begins. We can not go through the time of Jacobs trouble. It is for the Jews who rejected Jesus as their savior. 

144,000 of them will be saved during the tribulation period. Revelation 7. And so man gentiles that no man can number. 

But, they will have to keep from taking the mark of the beast to be saved. Revelation 14:9-13. 

We are under the dispensation of grace. Romans 11:6. Eternal life is given to us who just believe on His name. John 1:12 Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, (First Corinthians 15:3-4,) For it is the POWER of God unto salvation to everyone that believeth, to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. 

The second we believe that gospel, we are sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise unto the praise of His glory. Ephesians 1:13-14. Our guarantee of eternal life. Romans 8:9 Without the Spirit there is no salvation. With the Spirit we have eternal life.

March 27 2021 2 responses Vote Up Share Report

Add your Answer

All answers are REVIEWED and MODERATED.
Please ensure your answer MEETS all our guidelines.

What makes a good answer? ▼

A good answer provides new insight and perspective. Here are guidelines to help facilitate a meaningful learning experience for everyone.

  1. Adhere to the eBible Statement of Faith.
  2. Your answer should be complete and stand-alone.
  3. Include supporting arguments, and scripture references if possible. Seek to answer the "why".
  4. Adhere to a proper tone and spirit of love and understanding.
  5. For more info see The Complete Guide to eBible
  1. 4000 characters remaining