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Jennifer Rothnie
Supporter
Predestination (as per the Biblical definition) means to set boundaries/limits/horizons upon something before hand. The Greek word (in Rom 8:29-30) is proorizó, which is from pró ("before") and horízō ("establish boundaries, limits"). Horízō is where we get the English term horizon.
The fact that God established rules and limits before time began is quite Biblical in regards to the physical universe, the path of salvation, the judgement for sin, the flow of history, etc. (Prov 8:22-31, Job 38:4-41, Psalm 136:1-9, Hab 2:2-3, Rom 9:16-18, Rev 17:16-18, Jer 51; Job 42:1, Prov 16:9, Isa 30:27-33, Isa 45:13, Jude 1:5-7, John 3:18, Mark 16:16, John 1:12, Psalm 1:1-6, II Thess 1:3-10, II Peter 2:1-22)
In regards to salvation: God set up the plan/rules/covenant of salvation before time began, that we could be adopted as sons and justified through Christ. (Rom 8:18-30, Acts 4:23-31, I Peter 1:10-12, Titus 1:1-3, John 10:9, John 14:6, Rom 1:1-3, I Tim 1:5-6, Psalm 11:2-9, Heb 6:13-20, I John 3:1-10, Dan 2:44, Eph 3:7-11, II Tim 2:1-13, etc). Unlike with nature, which God can supersede, God has bound Himself to this plan due to His own character and justice.
This plan of salvation God also predestined to include the gentiles, not just the Jews (Eph 3:2-6, Rom 3:21-31, Rom 9:1-26, Rom 15:5-13, John 1:11-13, Isa 45:9-10, etc.)
So, when scripture speaks of predestination, there is nothing inherent in the term that would make it align with English concepts of destiny. No one is 'forced' to respond to the gospel in faith or 'prohibited' from responding; no one is 'fated' to choose Christ or not.
Rather, we are predestined according to the plan [of salvation], which was created because God works out everything in accordance to His will, so that all who put their hope in Christ will be saved! We are included in Christ because we heard the message of truth [the plan of salvation] and believed. God predestined that those in Christ, believers, be sealed with the Holy Spirit as a down payment of our future inheritance of eternal life! (Eph 1:11-14)
We didn't chose the way of salvation (God did), nor did we chose our own gifts or ministries (God did). We are, however, to have faith and follow (John 15:16, John 12:25-26).
For an analogy of how the Greek term proorizó, to set limits beforehand, differs from the concept of 'destiny', here is an analogy:
Ten people live on a tiny island with no apparent way off. A man comes and tells them their island is sinking and offers them free passage on his personal jet. Five of the islanders stay, refusing to believe the island is sinking. Three believe the island is sinking, but don't take the man's offer because they think they can find another way off. Two take the man's offer and escape - the rest drown.
'Destiny' would say the eight were fated to drown while the two were fated to be saved. Predestination, as per scripture, would hold that the way of salvation was predestined before hand (the man, free passage, airplane) and that the physics of the ocean/island/plane were pre-set.
The theory that God arbitrarily pre-chose certain people to be saved and certain people not to be saved does not seem to be biblical, as scripture states clearly that in no way has God purposed some not to be saved, as He desires that all be saved, and consistently calls men to repentance and faith. (I Tim 2:3-4, II Pet 3:9, Ezek 18:32-33, Ezek 33:11, John 3:16-17, Isa 30:15-18, II Chron 7:11-22, Rom 11:25-27, Rev 2:4-5, Mark 6:11-13, Acts 3:18-20, Rom 11:13-15, Rom 2:3-5, etc) As He did appoint the plan of salvation before time, it would be counter-intuitive that He would act by a different set of rules (Isa 45:18-25, John 14:6, John 1:1-18). God does know the end from the beginning, however, and as such those who do not believe stand condemned, as is the eternal destiny appointed for all those who refuse to believe (John 3:18, Psalm 73:1-28, Phil 3:17-21, Psalm 49:1-20, Rom 2:1-11, I Pet 2:7-9)
JD Abshire
If you will bear with me I believe it would be helpful to look up definitions to the words in question. Then show the passages in which they’re used. The words predestinate/predestinated only appear in the New Testament of the KJV. According to Strong’s Concordance the verb predestinate is from the Greek proorizō meaning: to limit in advance, i.e. (figuratively) predetermine:—determine before, ordain, predestinate. Outline of Biblical usage is: 1.to predetermine, decide beforehand 2.In the NT of God decreeing from eternity. 3. to foreordain, appoint beforehand. Acts 4:28 “For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.” Romans 8:29 “For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate……..” Romans 8:30 “Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called:……..” 1 Corinthians 2:7 ”….. which God ordained before the world unto our glory:” Ephesians 1:5 “Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,” Ephesians 1:11” In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:” In my opinion the above passages are clear that God does in fact choose. He does so in and of himself and without outside influence. In answer the second part of your question, please consider the following passages. Paul’s following statement is concerning both Jew and Gentile. He declares the whole world is guilty before God. “As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.” (Romans 3:10-11) In 1 Corinthians 2:14 he tells us why unbelievers do not understand neither do they seek God: “But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.” Strong’s concordance defines “natural” in this context as: having the nature and characteristics of the breath; the principal of animal life, which men have in common with the brutes; the sensuous nature with its subjection to appetite and passion. I don’t believe I’m out of line by saying a natural man is totally devoid of spiritual life, unsaved, lost and unregenerate. Our Lord stated in John 6:37 “All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.” In V.39: “And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.” In V.44 He said: “No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.” In Christ’s great intercessory prayer we read: “I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word. (John 17:6) “I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.” (John 17:9) “While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.” (John 17:12) I believe scripture clearly reveals that God has made choice, chosen, elected, ordained and will effectually draw and redeem those he has chosen and not lose a single one. I also believe that it is impossible for unregenerate mankind to seek God aside from the Holy Spirit opening the spiritually blind eyes, enabling the individual to realize his condition. Salvation is then the easy part for one genuinely convicted. Christ becomes the only option, choice, the only one who can save us from sin, death and hell.
James Kraft
First John 2:2 And His the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only, but for the sins of the whole world. First Timothy 2:4 Who would have all men to be saved,and come unto the knowledge of the truth. The gospel. First Corinthians 15:3-4 That Chrst died for our sins, according to the scriptures, that He was buried and rose again on the third day, according to the scriptures. Once we believe that gospel we are sealed by the Holy Spirit and predestined to be raised at the resurrection. Ephesians 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, in whom also AFTER ye believed, ye were sealed by that Holy Spirit of promise. Ephesians 4:30 And grieve not the Holy Spirit in whom ye are sealed unto the day of redemption. John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me, will come to me, and all that cometh to me I will in nowise cast out. John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that WHOSOEVERE, BELIEVETH in Him, should not perish, but have everlasting life. Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but beleive on Him who justifieth the ungodlyy, his faith is counted for righteousness. John 1:12 But as many as received Him, to them gave He power to become the children of God, even to them that BELEIVE ON HIS NAME. John 10:28-29 And I give unto them eternal life, and they shall never perish, neither can any man pluck them from my hand. And my Father who is greater than all, no one can pluck them out of Him hand. Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God unto salvation to EVERYONE THAT BELIEVETH to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. Hebrews 13:5 And be content with such things as ye have, for He hath said, I will never leave you or forsake you. Do we have to persevere in the faith to stay saved? No, Second Timothy 2:13 If we believe not, He abideth fathful, He can not deny Himself. His Holy Spirit that lives in the believer. Ephesians 1:13. Limited atonement is not true, but once saved always saved is true. Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the GIFT of God is ETERNAL LIFE, through Jesus Christ our Lord. How hard do you have to work for a free gift? Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace ye are saved, THROUGH FAITH, and that not of yourselves, it is the GIFT of God, not of works, lest any man should boast. Romans 11:6 It is all grace, not works. IT is a free. First John 5:13 These things have I written unto you THAT BELIEVE, on the name of the Son of God, that ye may KNOW YE HAVE ETERNAL LIFE Can you lose eternal life? No, you can no lose eternal life that is given to everyone who believes. John 3:18 Believers can never be condemned again, unbelievers are condemned already, because they have not believed on the name of the Son of God. John 6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, he that beleiveth on me HATH EVERLASTING LIFE. We have it now. Colossians 3:3 Ye are dead, and your life is hidden with Christ in God.
Rosemary Nord
I have many questions about what the idea of "pre-destiny" is. If God does truly predestine who will accept Him and who will not, I praise Him for being chosen as one who does Love Him! I believe that our Heavenly Father knows the heart of everyone who truly seeks Him and He does not reject anyone who truly acknowledges Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior. Maybe it is that if He does predestine who will open the door for Him, and who will not, that those people never will.
Ben Jones
Absolutely everyone who seeks for the Lord will find Him! In Romans 3:11 we are told the exact number of people who will seek Him! “No one is truly wise; no one is seeking God.” Also Psalm 14: 2-3 gives us the identical number "The LORD looks down from heaven on the entire human race; he looks to see if anyone is truly wise, if anyone seeks God. But no, all have turned away; all have become corrupt. No one does good, not a single one!" Again this truth is spoken of in Psalm 53:2-3 "The LORD looks down from heaven on the entire human race; he looks to see if anyone is truly wise, if anyone seeks God. But no, all have turned away; all have become corrupt. No one does good, not a single one!" So we now know that it is impossible for anyone to ever seek for the Lord. So how does one obtain salvation? God chose the elect before the foundation of the world and as a result they will be saved! Eph 1:4-5 "According as He has chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestined us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will." It was God's will that He save some and He will save them whether we like it or not. God is absolutely sovereign. Prov. 16:9 “The mind of man plans his way, but the Lord directs his steps” If God did not predestine the elect to salvation, no one would ever get saved! Christ's work at Calvary actually did save a certain amount of people. They are called "the elect." If Christ's work at Calvary only made it possible that someday someone somewhere might seek for the Lord and receive Him as Lord and Savior, than Christ died for absolutely no one because as we have already seen no one seeks for the Lord.
Eric Howard
Romans 8:29-30. For those whom He forknew He also predestined to be conformed to the image of the Son, in order that He might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom He predestined he also called, and those whom He called he also justified, and those whom He justified He also glorified. In reading through these responses, I’ve seen what amounts to disagreements on definitions of words. If I support one view then I will reject definitions that call that view into question. My purpose for citing these verses is to highlight that God foreknew people—not things about people, but actual people. To foreknow means more than just knowing about them or knowing of them before creation. To “know” in this way points to a loving intimacy that God had with these people beforehand. In the same way that God had a loving intimacy with Israel (hesed) that He did not have with Egypt, God has a loving intimacy with those whom He foreknew. We have a specific group of people, then, that have been loved by God since before creation and those people have been predestined by God to be conformed to the image of the Son. Predestined—yes, when you look up the Greek, there is the literal meaning of setting horizons beforehand, but I find that to be confusing language that makes it easier to distract from what is actually being said. The word carries the weight of predetermined or foreordained. God has foreordained (or predetermined) that the people He foreknew (before creation) would be sanctified (conformed to the image of the Son—made like Christ). In 8:30, those who were foreordained (predetermined) to be sanctified (to be made like Christ as our standard of belief and practice) are called (that effectual calling in which the Holy Spirit regenerates the person in time and gives them the gift of faith and repentance so that now they hear the Word of God and respond in this faith (being fully persuaded of the truth of God’s Word) that has been given as a gift (Ephesians 2:8-9) of the Spirit by the grace of God. Those who are foreknown, predestined to be sanctified, and called (effectually) are also justified. They are counted as righteous. The righteousness of Christ is credited to their account and we are viewed by God with Christ’s righteousness. And because all of this is the word of God and not dependent on man (so that no one can boast) is it as good as done. God already sees these foreknown people (those who he has loved intimately from before creation) as glorified. Ephesians 2:6-7 “and raised us up with Him and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages, he might show the immeasurable riches of His grace in kindness toward us (faithful saints) in Christ Jesus. Because it is dependent on the One who is all powerful and all mighty, we have confidence that it is accomplished! As far as God is concerned, those who he foreknew (in Christ) are already seated with Christ (because we are chosen in Him from before the foundation of the world—Eph. 1:4) in the heavenly places. It is truly finished! We must use the language of the Bible to speak of God and the things of God. The Bible speaks of all that God has done to save the people he sovereignly chose before the foundation of the world.
Cassius D'Souza
I believe that God our Creator, our designer is able to predict with 100% accuracy. For example, we can fairly predict the flow of water based on factors like elevation and slope. With human behavior prediction gets even more complicated however God who sees the full picture knows the possible outcome. He knows our strengths and our breaking point. He can identify alpha's amidst thousand of people, and choose them for his prophets. Freewill brings an element of doubt, God respects it and does not interfere with freewill even at its worst. Therefore Heaven rejoices each time a soul is saved because there is always a element of doubt. Very few would watch a match where the outcome is predestined but you would watch a match where the outcome is predicted because of this element of suspense.
Jack Gutknecht
Predestination is, by definition, the doctrine that God has foreordained all things which will come to pass yet He is not the author of sin. He does, however, use sinful things for His glory and purpose. For example, the crucifixion was produced/brought about by sinful men who unrighteously put Jesus to death (Acts 4:27); nevertheless, in that death, we are reconciled to God (Rom. 5:10). Predestination maintains that God is the one who wills who will be saved (Rom. 9:16) and that it is not up to the desire of the person (John 1:13). God is the one who ordains the Christian into forgiveness, “…and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed” (Acts 13:48). Also, “For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the first-born among many brethren; and whom He predestined, these he also called; and who He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified” (Rom. 8:29-30). Further verses to examine are Eph. 1:4,11— “In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will.” All things. Now the question is, does all things work according to the counsel of his will include the final destiny of individuals? I believe so.;-- Rom. 9. It is not of human merit (vv. 11–13). God chose Jacob before the babies were born. The two boys had done neither good nor evil, so God’s choice was not based on their character or conduct. Romans 9:13 is a reference to Malachi 1:2–3 and refers to nations (Israel and Edom) and not individual sinners. God does not hate sinners. John 3:16 makes it clear that He loves sinners. The statement here has to do with national election, not individual. Since God’s election of Israel does not depend on human merit, their disobedience cannot nullify the elective purposes of God. God is faithful even though His people are unfaithful. “Elect” is always used of those who have already become believers, never of those who have not yet received the call. Everyone who perishes has chosen sin in such a way as to be truly responsible for his choice and truly deserving of judgment. God has His purposes (Romans 9:22–24). We must never think that God enjoyed watching a tyrant like Pharaoh. He bore/endured it. He bore it—the word in the Spanish Bible occurs in 1 Cor. 10:13 where God promised never to give us any temptation/trial harder than we can BEAR. But God can BEAR a whole lot more than we can! Including BEARING/ENDURING Pharaoh. God said to Moses, “I have surely seen the affliction of my people … and have heard their cry … for I know their sorrows” (Ex. 3:7). The fact that God was long suffering indicates that He gave Pharaoh opportunities to be saved (see 2 Peter 3:9). The word fitted in Romans 9:22 does not suggest that God made Pharaoh a “vessel of wrath.” The verb is in what the Greek grammarians call the middle voice, making it a reflexive action verb. So, it should read: “fitted himself for destruction.” God prepares men for glory (Rom. 9:23), but sinners prepare themselves for judgment. In Moses and Israel, God revealed the riches of His mercy; in Pharaoh and Egypt, He revealed His power and wrath. Since neither deserved any mercy, God cannot be charged with injustice. Ultimately, of course, God’s purpose was to form His church from both Jews and Gentiles (Rom. 9:24). Believers today are, by God’s grace, “vessels of mercy” that He is preparing for glory, a truth that reminds us of Romans 8:29-30.
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